here’s the key verse that has generated volumes of debate: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”
It’s one of the most familiar sentences in Scripture. You’ve heard it in Sunday school. You’ve seen it on wall plaques. You may have memorized it as a child. It sits right there in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible, and most of us glide right past it without stopping to ask the question that should stop us cold.
Who is God talking to?
I'm in Ch 23 of Heiser's book The Unseen Realm, so I've read all the info you are referring to here. I'm actually in Proverbs for my own reading, and noticed Proverbs 8 as well.
As you said... Progressive revelation. Of course the original audience wouldn't think Trinity. That was beyond their understanding. I'm still not comfortable with the idea that "let us make..."is referring to God speaking to his divine council (which I believe is true from what I've read). I still believe God is speaking within the Godhead. We are made in the image of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...the entirety of God. Not in the image of God AND his council. The angels are not the image we're made into. Even if they can be referred to as elohim.
I need to finish the book so I can discuss it with my Dad who gave it to me!
Question - are you going to tackle the Nephilim quandary?
I completely understand that discomfort. My answer to it is that I don't think the "let us make" is really an invitation to participate. I believe it is merely an announcement of what God intended and an invitation to be present for it. And the phrasing when He actually creates supports that.
And in regards to your question about nephilim, yes! I've talked about that question in a few articles before but the next one in the Divine Council series will be specifically addressing the question of the nephilim in the Divine Council framework.
Interesting! So what I’m reading is that in the beginning, YHWH created the world through the logos and the logos became flesh in the person of Yeshua, his Son.
Another interesting thing I found out – in the Colossian scripture you quoted the Greek says he was the first born of creation. The Greek word means of and “over“ is an interpretive choice but not original meaning.
Well, the thing about that is the word "of" isn't in the next. Neither is "over." They are words that we add so it can make grammatical sense in English.
Ultimately, the various translations render it the way they do based on interpretations of what the case and context mean.
And with that understanding, without getting deep into the weeds of Greek grammar, there are a few different perfectly defensible ways to translate it.
The NKJV and NIV both translate it as "over" and there are good grammatical reasons for that. Especially given the context of the next verse.
We are made in their images comprising spirit, power and wisdom.
Each creation party provides a percentage of their intrinsic elements is how I interpret it
Some years ago I had a powerful experience - beyond a vision - where after praying in the spirit for several hours, amongst many others doing likewise, I was in the spirit when the Spirit of Wisdom appeared. She was on a throne having golden hair and a diadem of gold set with sapphires and she was smiling down on me.
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of ALL creation. 16 For BY HIM ALL things were created, IN HEAVEN and on earth, visible and invisible, whether *thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities*—ALL things were created THROUGH HIM and FOR HIM. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Progressive revelation. Your argument for that position holds water for me as tangentially I personally experience progressive knowledge, understanding and wisdom when studying scripture. Truly a living breathing Word and not static as I find fresh new pieces of all three so often even in most familiar verses and sections. Case point, Col. 1:15-17 that you referenced. Even being mindful of Christ’s role in creation and His being the Word, I’d missed the significance and implication of His role in creating other Elohim! WOW! Right there. And yet I’d been overlooking that aspect! So again, I find myself seeing your take in stride with Heiser’s: the “us” as being both/and. Divine Council and trinity. Yet, I can too see how the presence of a trinitarian dialogue could be used to challenge Yahweh was speaking to a divine council, if not also looking at psalm 82 and other textual support well cited by Heiser (Though may I here confess I sometimes find myself still wrestling with Trinitarian versus biblical Unitarian or binatarian views and as such struggle to make a hard landing on any of the three? Maybe it’s a topic you’ve previously addressed or wouldn’t mind sharing views at some point if not?)
Eagerly looking forward to reading the rest of series!
As to my views on the Trinity, I've spoken a bit here and there, but never made a sustained scriptural argument for it. That's something to consider as I move forward. Thank you for the suggestion!
I'm in Ch 23 of Heiser's book The Unseen Realm, so I've read all the info you are referring to here. I'm actually in Proverbs for my own reading, and noticed Proverbs 8 as well.
As you said... Progressive revelation. Of course the original audience wouldn't think Trinity. That was beyond their understanding. I'm still not comfortable with the idea that "let us make..."is referring to God speaking to his divine council (which I believe is true from what I've read). I still believe God is speaking within the Godhead. We are made in the image of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...the entirety of God. Not in the image of God AND his council. The angels are not the image we're made into. Even if they can be referred to as elohim.
I need to finish the book so I can discuss it with my Dad who gave it to me!
Question - are you going to tackle the Nephilim quandary?
I completely understand that discomfort. My answer to it is that I don't think the "let us make" is really an invitation to participate. I believe it is merely an announcement of what God intended and an invitation to be present for it. And the phrasing when He actually creates supports that.
And in regards to your question about nephilim, yes! I've talked about that question in a few articles before but the next one in the Divine Council series will be specifically addressing the question of the nephilim in the Divine Council framework.
Interesting! So what I’m reading is that in the beginning, YHWH created the world through the logos and the logos became flesh in the person of Yeshua, his Son.
Another interesting thing I found out – in the Colossian scripture you quoted the Greek says he was the first born of creation. The Greek word means of and “over“ is an interpretive choice but not original meaning.
Well, the thing about that is the word "of" isn't in the next. Neither is "over." They are words that we add so it can make grammatical sense in English.
Ultimately, the various translations render it the way they do based on interpretations of what the case and context mean.
And with that understanding, without getting deep into the weeds of Greek grammar, there are a few different perfectly defensible ways to translate it.
The NKJV and NIV both translate it as "over" and there are good grammatical reasons for that. Especially given the context of the next verse.
This was helpful to me. I have read much of Michael Heiser with mixed feelings and your assessment of his mistake provided insight.
Thank you! I'm grateful that it's been helpful.
We are made in their images comprising spirit, power and wisdom.
Each creation party provides a percentage of their intrinsic elements is how I interpret it
Some years ago I had a powerful experience - beyond a vision - where after praying in the spirit for several hours, amongst many others doing likewise, I was in the spirit when the Spirit of Wisdom appeared. She was on a throne having golden hair and a diadem of gold set with sapphires and she was smiling down on me.
That's something I will always treasure.
Good insights. Looking forward to part 5.
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of ALL creation. 16 For BY HIM ALL things were created, IN HEAVEN and on earth, visible and invisible, whether *thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities*—ALL things were created THROUGH HIM and FOR HIM. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Progressive revelation. Your argument for that position holds water for me as tangentially I personally experience progressive knowledge, understanding and wisdom when studying scripture. Truly a living breathing Word and not static as I find fresh new pieces of all three so often even in most familiar verses and sections. Case point, Col. 1:15-17 that you referenced. Even being mindful of Christ’s role in creation and His being the Word, I’d missed the significance and implication of His role in creating other Elohim! WOW! Right there. And yet I’d been overlooking that aspect! So again, I find myself seeing your take in stride with Heiser’s: the “us” as being both/and. Divine Council and trinity. Yet, I can too see how the presence of a trinitarian dialogue could be used to challenge Yahweh was speaking to a divine council, if not also looking at psalm 82 and other textual support well cited by Heiser (Though may I here confess I sometimes find myself still wrestling with Trinitarian versus biblical Unitarian or binatarian views and as such struggle to make a hard landing on any of the three? Maybe it’s a topic you’ve previously addressed or wouldn’t mind sharing views at some point if not?)
Eagerly looking forward to reading the rest of series!
I'm so glad this was helpful to you!
As to my views on the Trinity, I've spoken a bit here and there, but never made a sustained scriptural argument for it. That's something to consider as I move forward. Thank you for the suggestion!